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Mike Thayer

I have exactly one question for you, as a "teacher".

Would you allow your own children to be monitored in such a way?

If so, I can only assume that you're fine with the loss of privacy, the loss of autonomy, and having your kids having to be "always on" in school.

If not, why is this okay for other people's children but not your own?

Gary Houchens

For purposes of a research study like this, yes, I would agree to let my own children be monitored.

In fact, human subjects research protocols would require parental permission of EVERY child who participated.


Aside from the total insanity (one of the problems being that GSR is not a very accurate predictor of anything and can be fooled quite easily as some of the teachers' comments imply) that this type of study implies, how more anti-individual, anti-liberty, anti-freedom from intrusion can it get.

You stated "But in my experience, student engagement is one of the most critical and difficult-to-measure components of the learning process." You have, unwittingly, identified the crux of the problem. That what we do (I've taught HS Spanish for 18 years) in education is amenable to measurement.

One of the underlying fallacies with grades, standards and standardized testing is that one can “quantify” a “quality”. They are two separate logical categories that cannot logically be "mixed" like oil and water. In a logical fashion when the base of a particular practice is a falsehood then the results more likely than not are going to be false (every now and again one stumbles across a correct result/answer by chance).

As Russ Ackhoff has stated (paraphrased) “If what you are doing is wrong [based on falsehoods] and you attempt to get better at what you are doing, you are getting ‘wronger’ (his term). So it is better to do the right thing wrong than to do the wrong thing right that way when you get better at doing the right thing you are getting it ‘righter’.” A simply stated truth, eh?

Gary Houchens

Duane, I suspect our educational philosophies are far more alike than you might imagine. Thanks for the comments.



Your welcome! I guess one of the (many) things that bothers me is that there are many-the vast majority it seems-in education believe that teaching and learning can viewed from a "scientific" lens, that "legitimate" educational discourse has to be-how's that acronym in "data driven dialogue" go-scientific, measurable, analyzable, retailable, and trivial-oops wrong SMART goal, eh!

Teaching and learning, i.e., education is an art and not a science and to attempt to use scientific methods, e.g., using data to evaluate what goes on in a classroom is a chimera.



Dang wanted to add "e.g., data or something like a GSR device. . .

Mike Thayer

I appreciate your posting my original comment, as well as your response, and so I have another couple of questions:

I certainly understand that human research protocols require consent (presumably of the parents, for children in schools). However, would you agree that a possible (perhaps likely) ultimate end-goal of this research is
to provide a system by which all students will be monitored while in school for their relative levels of "engagement" during classes?

If so, why would this be a good idea (and yes, I understand that student engagement is "critical and difficult-to-measure" - but would that really be what you were measuring?) and if not, what's the point of the original research?

Lisa M

Big Brother is getting closer and closer!
You would let your child sit in a classroom, with a bracelet on to measure whether their teacher was engaging them? What parent would do this? What evidence would it give you that the teacher is or is not effective?
Maybe, next they will provide electric shock to the teacher every time the students are not engaged!(Oooops, I am being hysterical, aren't I?)


As an experienced teacher who admires her students, I don't need a bracelet to tell me when they are: bored, confused, excited, tired, interested, etc. I know them as individuals with strengths, weaknesses, aspirations and dreams. I find this insulting and another way to turn the art of teaching into an exact science that can be manned by Stepford test prep drones or teach for a while recruits. Gates continues to demean and insult the teaching profession, one he knows nothing about. Just because he is a billionaire, it is assumed he is a expert on all topics and all professions. Bill and Melinda and the rest of the faux reformers should give up three years of their lives and work on the front line teaching public school children......plan the lessons, monitor their progress, grade papers, chart the data, enrich for the talented and gifted while individualizing and differentiating for those who struggle, attend 504 meetings, PPT's, parent conferences, district workshops.  It is time for them to walk the walk and then let's plan to talk some more about the teaching profession.

Gary Houchens

Mike, Lisa, and Linda all raise good points. I'll make another post in coming days exploring this issue in great depth. I actually share all of your concerns about nefarious ways this technology could be used. I still think the research is worth pursuing however.

And if you browse around my blog, including posts from recent days, you'll see I'm no fan if standardized testing or measurement mania.

Thanks to all of you for engaging me on this issue. You've expanded my own thinking on this topic.

Gary Houchens

New blog post up, following up on this topic: http://schoolleader.typepad.com/school-leader/2012/06/my-row-with-ravitch.html

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